EFA2024-10-01_BCElectionShow_housting_food
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[00:00:00] Robin Puga: That was Vote for Democracy from Canadian Treasurer Rafi. And you're listening to Vancouver Co op Radio, CFRO 100. 5 FM in Vancouver. And this is Each for All, the cooperative connection. We're broadcasting from the stolen traditional and ancestral territories of the Waututh peoples. And the team here at Each for All continues to stand in solidarity with this country's Indigenous people and call on our government for meaningful action and implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission recommendations.

[00:00:29] Robin Puga: Tonight on the show, we're back in the studio, live from the downtown east side here. We're going to be kicking off election season, and in the second half of the show, our producer, Sandy Goldman, will be talking food security with Theo Lamb from the Quest non profit grocery markets operating here in Vancouver.

[00:00:48] Robin Puga: But to lead us out tonight, we are very grateful to have uh, tom armstrong ceo of the cooperative housing federation And he is here with us in the studio. Welcome tom. Thanks robin. Great to be back So once again, it is election season and uh at the very top of that agenda is affordable housing So, uh, really glad to have you here with us, Tom, to talk it through.

[00:01:15] Robin Puga: Um, it is the topic on everyone's mind. Do you want to, uh, maybe tell us, uh, what you're seeing from these parties out here on this key election issue? 

[00:01:24] Thom Armstrong: Well, you're sure right that it's, uh, top of mind for everyone. In fact, um, our partners at Housing Central, the Co op Housing Federation, uh, BC Non Profit Housing Association, the Aboriginal Housing Management Association, we did some polling in advance, and 90 percent of the people who responded, uh, said that for them, housing was the key issue, uh, in the campaign.

[00:01:46] Thom Armstrong: I know there are a lot of other issues, uh, swirling around out there, Candidates and leaders are trying to score political points off them. But when you, when you appeal all those layers away. What people really want to talk about is housing. So, uh, I guess I'd start by saying, uh, housing central, the partners, um, we knew that housing was going to be the topic that everyone wanted to talk about.

[00:02:10] Thom Armstrong: So we decided to get out in front of that. And we commissioned an update of our study, uh, from back in 2017 to use a real data focus, uh, to quantify the need, uh, for housing. And some of the numbers are just. You know, I have to say stark, um, that we have 11, 000 homeless, uh, people at any given time, uh, in the province, uh, as you know, indigenous people are overrepresented in, in that, uh, count there, 8 percent of the general population and 40 percent of the homeless population.

[00:02:44] Thom Armstrong: So that has to be everybody's focus. Uh, we wanted to, to know. Um, who was going to commit to building homes, uh, for renter households who need the most half, half of the renter households in BC, um, make less than 64, 000 a year. And that means that translates into an affordable rent of using the standard measure of 1, 600 a month.

[00:03:12] Thom Armstrong: And if you asked, um, you know, the development community, whether it be private or nonprofit or just the broad community housing sector, nobody can build rental homes at an economic rent of 1, 600 a month. And, you know, 40 percent of renter households make less than 50, 000 a year. So now you're talking. 1, 200, 1, 300 a month in affordable rent.

[00:03:34] Thom Armstrong: So the question we really wanted to ask in the update to the housing strategy was how many homes do we need to cure the backlog in affordable homes and meet the demand looking out into the next 10 years? And the number is, is startling. We need a fully 12, 500 purpose built rental homes. Every year, uh, for 10 years.

[00:03:58] Thom Armstrong: So 125, 000 homes for people earning 50, 000 a year or less. 30, 000 of those being, uh, homes for indigenous, uh, people. We've, with the first, uh, for the first time we've taken the amazing work done by AMA. In calling for an urban, rural, and northern indigenous housing strategy and folded those numbers into the housing central plan.

[00:04:23] Thom Armstrong: So we can now say, you know, for example, out of every 12, 500 homes we build, uh, 3, 000 of them need to be for indigenous people. So, so now we look around and say, who's, um, who's responding to that? Um, well, uh, for starters, I see the Green Party has released now a housing platform that essentially mimics the call for a new affordable supply of homes over the next decade.

[00:04:50] Thom Armstrong: So, check that box. Uh, the NDP, They haven't released their entire housing platform. I don't think, but what they have released to date, uh, has really focused on affordable ownership, uh, for middle income people. So we're still waiting to hear, um, will they endorse the, um, you know, the affordable homes called for by the plan and the conservative party of BC, um, has outlined a platform that frankly is, is, uh, can only be described as disappointing.

[00:05:22] Thom Armstrong: Um, what they've essentially said is. Everything the NDP or the current government has done to try and move the needle on affordable housing, they will undo. And the phrase we see most frequently in that campaign platform is, let's unleash the power of the private sector. 

[00:05:40] Robin Puga: Wow. And they will 

[00:05:41] Thom Armstrong: build the affordable homes, uh, we need.

[00:05:43] Thom Armstrong: I think we've seen that movie before. 

[00:05:44] Robin Puga: Yeah. How did that work out for the Liberals there? 

[00:05:47] Thom Armstrong: Um, not, not all that well. 

[00:05:48] Robin Puga: Yeah, I mean, uh, I think we've, we've had these conversations for, for many years now about, uh, uh, how we were trying to get beyond that, uh, rhetoric and, and that approach and it didn't work.

[00:06:01] Robin Puga: That's how we ended up in this situation where we're in today. So, um, When we talked last, uh, you were in the studio here in February, we were talking about the BC builds program. This is a very new and exciting program and, uh, contribute contributions from all levels of government. Um, is, is that having a difference?

[00:06:21] Robin Puga: Are we seeing the needle move at all right now? 

[00:06:25] Thom Armstrong: Well, I think the, so here's how the needle's moving. Um, I mean, Canada's always had a pretty shabby record in, uh, In the percentage of its housing supply, that's non-market housing supply. I mean the OECD uh, average is about 8% of total stock. We're around three.

[00:06:45] Thom Armstrong: Um, but you still see in other countries in Europe, 20, 30, 40% of housing supply being non-market. So in the past, since 2017, so in 2017, the. Um, non market rental completions represented about 7 percent of overall rental completions. In 2022, that number went up to 20%. Oh. Now that is a significant moving of the needle.

[00:07:11] Thom Armstrong: Uh, and it's a direct consequence of the historic investment the current government has made in non market housing. So, that does push us closer to that 7 to 10 percent of non market housing supply we think, uh, would represent a healthy balance. Bye. I mean, I, you know, I like the BC Builds program, but in and of itself, it targets a much, uh, higher, uh, income band than you'll see on average in the, in renter households.

[00:07:41] Thom Armstrong: Um, 85, 000 and, and up a year. Uh, we're talking, uh, about, uh, Literally needing tens of thousands of homes for people making less than 50, 000. 

[00:07:52] Robin Puga: No, um, we have talked about this a lot over the many, many years you've come on the show. Thank you again for doing that. But, um, isn't just building non market housing going to potentially temper that crazy out of control housing market?

[00:08:08] Robin Puga: Isn't that kind of its purpose? 

[00:08:11] Thom Armstrong: Well, eventually, um, But, you know, the, the, the, the other, um, dimension to this is the out of control costs of 

homeownership. 

[00:08:21] Thom Armstrong: And I raise that because it really does have a direct impact on the rental market. If people can't, uh, if people who might have been able to afford to buy a home 10, 15, 20 years ago, can't, then They stay in the rental market and that bumps everybody down the housing ladder until you get to the bottom and you, you fall off.

[00:08:44] Thom Armstrong: And that's really a key problem now is that the whole market is, is out of whack. So we need to be building rental supply, uh, at the right income bands. And we need to continue with the strategy that, and I will say this to the credit of the government, the first and only government in Canada to invest in a rental protection fund that sees purpose built rental housing, uh, in the private market, bought, uh, by nonprofit housing providers, by community land trusts, moved into the non market sector and, and stay permanently affordable.

[00:09:20] Thom Armstrong: And, um, The Rental Protection Fund has been an unqualified success. It's a game changer, and we're calling on the government to reinvest substantially in the Rental Protection Fund. And we're calling on every other government in Canada to do the same thing. 

[00:09:35] Robin Puga: And so for those who aren't familiar with the Rental Protection Fund, can you, Give it a little explanation.

[00:09:41] Thom Armstrong: Well, over the years, and I have to say, this has been a blind spot for all of us. We've been so focused on building affordable supply. We forgot to look at what was happening out there in the real, um, the rental market and what was happening was older buildings with really affordable rents and seven, eight, 900 a month, uh, were being bought Uh, by pension funds, uh, real estate investment trusts, um, either redeveloped or, or refurbished.

[00:10:10] Thom Armstrong: Um, tenants, uh, were being, um, on their way out were being replaced by new tenants paying triple the rents. So we, for every new affordable home we were building, we were losing four out of the existing, uh, rental market. And the Rental Protection Fund's idea, and I have to give You know, all kinds of credit to our partners at BC Nonprofit and AMA.

[00:10:33] Thom Armstrong: Without them, this could never have happened. We received an investment from the provincial government of 500 million just to fill that equity gap so non profits and co ops and community land trusts could buy those buildings instead of seeing them bought up by investors and move them into the non profit or community housing sector.

[00:10:56] Thom Armstrong: Stabilize those rents, keep them affordable forever, and when the time comes to redevelop those properties, they are redeveloped in the interest of residents, uh, not investors. We, we lead, this is, I mean, it's embarrassing. Um, BC leads the country in evictions. But more importantly, it leads the country in no fault evictions.

[00:11:15] Thom Armstrong: 85 percent of the evictions in BC are no fault. Wow. And that just means that the temptation for a landlord investor to, to create churn in the tenant population to double and triple the return, uh, they get off rents on that initial investment is just irresistible. And that's what's happening. 

[00:11:35] Robin Puga: Wow. Yeah, those renovictions.

[00:11:38] Robin Puga: I'm, I think everybody knows someone who's been renovicted. Renovicted, 

[00:11:41] Thom Armstrong: demovicted. Um, I mean, Burnaby used to be the capital in Canada of demovictions. Now, now they have some of the strongest, uh, tenant protection legislation in the whole country. Good for them. Um, but we still need to move, um, Investor homes, uh, out of the private market into the community housing sector, that'll get us closer to our, our target of a healthier percentage of non market housing stock too.

[00:12:06] Robin Puga: All right. So, uh, Housing Central, um, uh, as we know, cause we've been paying attention is, uh, uh, um, a collaboration of the BC nonprofit housing society, AMA, the Aboriginal housing, um, um, Association and the Co op Housing Federation of B. C. Uh, what is Housing Central's new housing plan? Uh, what is the ask here, uh, during this election?

[00:12:35] Thom Armstrong: Well, the best way I can sum it up is, uh, our ask is, uh, to build more and protect more. So we need to build like literally 125, 000 new homes over the next 10 years. That'll catch us up on the backlog that will provide for the demand we expect to see in the market. But those homes have to be affordable to households making 50, 000 a year or less.

[00:12:56] Thom Armstrong: And, and 3, 000 out of every 12, 000 need to be for Indigenous households. At the same time, We need the government to recommit to an annual investment in the rental protection fund so that we save 2000 rental homes a year. And we need a commitment for roughly 550 million a year to cure that, that capital repair backlog in existing social housing stock.

[00:13:23] Thom Armstrong: That's been so dramatically underfunded for the last decade. And that would take care of it. Are these 

[00:13:29] Robin Puga: reasonable budgets to ask of the province? And, I mean, maybe not just of the province, but are they reasonable asks? 

[00:13:37] Thom Armstrong: Well, you know, I guess to people who have expressed some sticker shock over the price, I'd say, when did it become acceptable to plan to solve just part of the problem?

[00:13:49] Thom Armstrong: Um, you know, we have a housing crisis, uh, in B. C. and Canada for that matter. And it, it deserves a crisis level response. So if the numbers aren't making people uncomfortable, they're not high enough. And I'd say, you know, out of the six, uh, billion, uh, a year that's being called for, only two billion and change is, is expected from the province.

[00:14:10] Thom Armstrong: The federal government, uh, is expected to kick in, uh, another third. And the community housing sector is expected to leverage its own assets. Uh, to contribute the value of another two plus billion a year. And with that combined commitment, that combined investment, uh, we can get there. But, you know, to people who might wonder if the price tag is too high, I'd say what's your, what's your alternative?

[00:14:37] Robin Puga: Mass homelessness. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I mean, uh, if you are asking for this investment, then obviously. Uh, we're looking for, uh, a reduction in homelessness need, right? Um, and, uh, what does that mean for British Columbia? Like what are the numbers that, uh, that do swing the other way? Cause presumably it is, it is expensive to have people living in, um, well, in, in housing that is not permanent.

[00:15:13] Thom Armstrong: We, we estimate that the cost, um, of providing, uh, homelessness services and, and related, um, services would, would be cut by almost two and a half billion dollars a year, uh, if the recommendations of the plan were implemented. And, and, uh, Some of the chartered banks have started to do studies around productivity levels in the country and the impact on the gross domestic product of having a robust homeless strategy and a material investment in a new supply of affordable homes.

[00:15:46] Thom Armstrong: And they're telling us that the potential growth in B. C. 's gross domestic product could be anywhere from 22 to 46 billion. Um, a year and that is, uh, enormous, uh, so I'd say on the social justice side and on the sheer, uh, productivity and economic side, the case has been made and it's up to every party who's fielding candidates in this election to tell us, uh, what their plan is.

[00:16:13] Robin Puga: Last year, maybe it was the year before, you had quite, uh, detailed, um, data on, on the electors and, and, uh, all of the different districts. And, um, do you have that again this year? 

[00:16:28] Thom Armstrong: Um, that'll be released, uh, very shortly so that people can assess, um, the, the, um, the current state of, of the housing market in their community.

[00:16:37] Thom Armstrong: Um, the Canadian Rental Housing Index, um, is being, um, Updated as we speak and and people can can go to that index and search for their municipality and get Real time data on housing affordability and what else is happening in the housing market in their their location 

[00:16:56] Robin Puga: Cool. 

[00:16:56] Thom Armstrong: Well, we'll keep 

[00:16:57] Robin Puga: an eye out for that um The community land trust is another subject that we've talked about quite a lot here, uh with you Um, do you want to tell us what's going on with that?

[00:17:08] Robin Puga: And how does it play into housing central's plan? 

[00:17:12] Thom Armstrong: Well, the, the community land trust is a pretty key element of the drive for new supply, particularly in the co op housing sector. You know, we, we, I have to say that, that for decades, the community housing sector didn't pay as much attention as, as we might have to creating an engine for our own growth.

[00:17:33] Thom Armstrong: And for at least the co op housing sector, that's really what the community land trust is. I, I was, just coincidentally, I spent some time earlier, uh, this afternoon. At the corner of, uh, Burrard and Davey, with a group of, uh, housing, um, executives from Australia. And I walked them up there from the office we were having our meeting in, because I wanted to show them, uh, what, uh, The community housing sector can do when it has the resources and the capacity.

[00:18:02] Thom Armstrong: And if you go by that red hoarding at Burrard and Davie, you'll see that hole in the ground and they're up on the sign. It's not big enough for my liking, but there's a little community land trust sign there because that's the site we're developing, uh, in partnership with the city of Vancouver. And that's a city owned property.

[00:18:21] Thom Armstrong: Uh, we're having it on a lease for 99 years. We're going 17 stories in mass timber construction. So passive house standards, um, mass timber, which I think is the future of building in BC, but even more exciting, it's a partnership with McLaren House to provide a certain number of homes for people living with AIDS.

[00:18:41] Thom Armstrong: And the first two floors will also be the, uh, the new community space for community, which is the hub, the hub, excuse me, for Vancouver's queer community. And we just can't wait, uh, to open up in 2025 with, um, you know, 154 brand new homes, uh, and that kind of partnership at the community level. I just can't wait.

[00:19:03] Robin Puga: Yeah, that's exciting. Um, uh, other things we have talked about, which I'd, Uh want to just touch on um the co op leases so when we are talking about you know wanting to protect more um the A lot of co ops had their leases with the cmhc for the last 40 years and are now Coming up on that 40 years. Um how and a lot of The affordable units in these cooperatives, uh, won't be subsidized anymore through that, um, loan, uh, agreement.

[00:19:38] Robin Puga: So, um, is there any update on that? The co op lease redevelopments or anything? 

[00:19:44] Thom Armstrong: Yeah, now, you reminded me that we were last in the studio in February. And that's a significant, um, date because on March 13th, so it would have come after we last, uh, talked, uh, Vancouver City Council, um, led by the ABC majority adopted a motion that I had not expected them to adopt.

[00:20:05] Thom Armstrong: And what they essentially said was for those sites, um, that the city owns, um, that house co ops today, um, that have been identified for redevelopment, the city wants to see. Uh, a community housing sector led redevelopment process so that we maximize to the greatest extent possible the number of co op homes on those sites.

[00:20:31] Thom Armstrong: And up to then it had been everybody's kind of prevailing assumption that what the city was going to try and do was replace the existing co op homes one for one. And then really layer on a whole bunch of market homes to charge higher rents to pay for the co op, the new co op homes. And, uh, The argument we made was that, you know, co ops, um, can charge any level of rent that it would take to make a development viable.

[00:20:56] Thom Armstrong: And if it takes a mix of, of incomes and rents across an expanded number of homes, no reason we can't do that because non market homes, even if they may start more expensively than people expect, will only get more affordable. Over time and council adopted that unanimously. So since then, four of the six co ops that were identified for redevelopment, uh, have passed motions to work with the community land trust to lead the redevelopment process with the city and, and build a new generation of co op housing on city owned land.

[00:21:28] Thom Armstrong: I can't wait to see how that turns out. 

[00:21:30] Robin Puga: Well, that's pretty exciting. Um, and any more commitment from the federal government towards. Those co op, uh, subsidies. 

[00:21:40] Thom Armstrong: Well, you had to bring the mood down, didn't you? Well, I mean, it's not necessarily bad news. The federal government did announce, um, a new federal co op development program.

[00:21:53] Thom Armstrong: Um, the, the first round of, uh, uh, The, like the first round of intake, um, was closed, um, last month and we expect to see announcements were told early in the new year of new co op homes being, um, funded under the first, the first federal, uh, co op housing program since the one announced by Brian Mulrooney.

[00:22:20] Thom Armstrong: Wow. Yeah, that's, uh, I actually had a chance to speak with, um, Prime Minister Trudeau Uh, a couple of months ago and said, you know, you don't know how happy you've made me. I don't have to say any longer that the last, uh, prime minister to approve a federal co op housing program was Brian Mulroney, because now it's you.

[00:22:38] Thom Armstrong: And of course we know who the first prime minister was to approve a co op program. So we've got the Trudeau bookends, uh, on the first and the most recent, uh, co op programs, but we're, we're pretty, pretty anxious to see how that's going to translate into number of homes. We're also waiting to hear. Um, what the government might do about its announcement of a, of a national rental protection fund, um, quite a different financial arrangement there, emphasizing more debt than equity, but you know, low cost financing, especially if it's run through the, um, infrastructure bank, uh, at rates of, you know, say one and a half to 2 percent dramatically reduces debt service costs, makes the potential for, uh, a big, robust investment in, in acquisition.

[00:23:26] Thom Armstrong: Of purpose built rental homes and moving them into the community housing sector, uh, a real possibility. 

[00:23:32] Robin Puga: Uh, I have to ask cause, um, I've, I've, I feel like I've asked this before. Sometimes I feel like it's groundhog day here with you, but, uh, does the investment from the federal government, is it tied to the upcoming election next year?

[00:23:48] Thom Armstrong: Oh, it's, um, It, it's actually further, uh, downstream. Okay. So, so the, the, the and, and you're right, it does feel a lot like Groundhog Day. I'll, I'll give you an example. The, um, the , the Rental Protection Fund that was announced as a, the national, it was a one and a half billion dollars commitment, and everyone threw their hands up in the air and said, let's pop those champagne corks.

[00:24:15] Thom Armstrong: Uh, now and then you, you look at the fine print, and for the 2024 or 25 budget year, it's 5 million. On the equity side out of 500 million. So that'll allow, you know, someone somewhere in the country to buy one 25 unit building, not in Vancouver, not in Toronto, but somewhere. Meanwhile, the BC rental protection fund in just over a year of activity has concluded 33, uh, acquisitions, uh, saved.

[00:24:48] Thom Armstrong: In excess of 1500 homes on its way to 3000 homes against an initial target of 2000 and just in the first two quarters of, of, um, the last year, the fund accounted for fully 53 percent of all the multi unit, uh, purpose built rental acquisitions in the province. So. Not only is that a dent in the market, that's driving the market.

[00:25:14] Thom Armstrong: And we hope to see that, uh, continued, uh, if the next government is willing to make that investment. 

[00:25:20] Robin Puga: Well, and, uh, part of the housing central ask is from the federal government for investment as well. Are you feeling confident about that? 

[00:25:29] Thom Armstrong: Uh, well, I mean, I, I wish I could say, um, that, that the federal, uh, government recognizes the urgency of the, of the investment that's, that's required.

[00:25:41] Thom Armstrong: But you know, if you, I mean, BC is what, 15 percent of the population. So if you bang that number out, uh, per rata basis and you invest 2 billion a year for 15 percent of the population, what that means. Uh on a national budget scale is is a pretty big number But again, I would ask you know Do you want to just solve part of the problem or do you want to do you want to cut?

[00:26:06] Thom Armstrong: to the chase and actually Solve the housing crisis that's afflicted us for a generation. 

[00:26:13] Robin Puga: Well, uh, we are looking at an election here in the province in the next couple of weeks and um, thank you for shedding some light on the election Most talked about, uh, issue that, uh, we are all trying to wrap our heads around.

[00:26:29] Robin Puga: And yeah, as always, Tom, uh, it's amazing that this group at Housing Central comes with such an articulated plan. Um, we really hope that, uh, you get the support you need. 

[00:26:43] Thom Armstrong: We're counting on everyone. Um, and you know, I'd say to, to everyone who, um, Everyone who's listening, and, and all your friends, neighbors, and family, um, this could be, uh, one of those life changing elections, um, and it's really important that everyone, uh, identify, um, the issues that matter to you.

[00:27:05] Thom Armstrong: And then go out and vote based on, on those issues. So, um, see you at the polls on October 19th. 

[00:27:13] Robin Puga: Thank you so much. Uh, my guest has been Tom Armstrong. He is the CEO of, uh, the Cooperative Housing Federation of BC. And you're of course, listening to each for all the Cooperative Connection on Vancouver Cooperative Radio, 100.

[00:27:26] Robin Puga: 5 FM in Vancouver, live online. Co-op radio.org. We'll be right back with Sandy Goldman and Theo Lamb. For the latter half of the show,

[00:27:35] Sandy Goldman: and we're back. You're listening to Each for All, The Cooperative Connection on Vancouver Co op Radio. 100. 5 FM and online at coopradio. org. I'm Sandy Goldman. The cost of groceries is a major concern for people across B. C. and across Canada. Inflation, supply chain issues, climate change, and staggering rates of poverty have led more and more people to use food banks, school food programs, community food hubs, and non profit markets.

[00:28:12] Sandy Goldman: If you can barely afford your rent, your mortgage, or are on the street, chances are you'll sacrifice healthy food choices just to get by. We're a rich province, a rich country, yet food insecurity continues to grow. How do we turn the tide and what can our provincial government do to help? Our next guest has some ideas.

[00:28:37] Sandy Goldman: Theo Lam is the executive director of Quest Food Exchange, which serves more than 10, 000 people in BC's lower mainland. I began our discussion by asking her how Quest got started. Have a listen. You know, Quest started 

[00:28:56] Theo Lamb: probably almost, we're at about 35 years ago. Uh, like So many things do a concerned group of citizens of volunteers wanted to support, uh, community members in Vancouver's downtown East side.

[00:29:15] Theo Lamb: And so they started serving hot meals out of the back of a truck. I mean, A simple and powerful idea of let's expand food and the idea and the concept of quest grew from there. And over the years, it has evolved into the nonprofit. Grocery store model that it is today. And so today quest operates currently 5 bricks and mortar markets across metro Vancouver.

[00:29:48] Theo Lamb: Now, we've got 2 in Vancouver 1, uh, in the downtown East side. One further east, we have a market that's based in Burnaby, but it's right on the Burnaby, New Westminster border. So we serve at least 2 different municipalities. And what we've learned through our data collection is that folks come from much further than just the municipality we're operating in.

[00:30:12] Theo Lamb: We also have a market close to the key in downtown North Vancouver. And we have a market in Surrey. It's our largest. market there. And we operate a distribution center here where I'm calling from, uh, at Dundas Street. That's where our fleet of three trucks operating every day, uh, make deliveries, pick up food and distribute food very, very quickly.

[00:30:39] Theo Lamb: Um, our organization is between 60 and 70 people, uh, most of whom are working in our markets. And we have a volunteer list of over 300 folks who also support us in our market. And so we are, uh, undertaking the work of sourcing food donations, um, from our producers, our farmers, our retailers, our distributors, um, when, and if needed, we consider if food does need to be purchased to supplement, to ensure you have those key food categories that any British Columbian would want and expect to find in a full service store.

[00:31:17] Theo Lamb: Grocery store. Um, and, and we nurture these, uh, relationships with our food partners. And, uh, what, what you end up with is, uh, this, uh, incredible model, our clients of we serve over 10, 000, uh, active, unique clients across Metro Vancouver. And those are individual clients who are then feeding often entire households.

[00:31:42] Theo Lamb: They are referred to us. By a community of who we call referring partners. These are organizations who are in a position working on the front lines and can identify the individuals and families who are facing economic barriers, who are struggling to afford groceries on a weekly basis. And they can go, Hey, I, I, I know exactly who can help you.

[00:32:09] Theo Lamb: Let's refer you to question. There's a, Sort of a low barrier process to doing that, but there still is a process. So that means we don't have to, uh, police surveil or vet who is coming into our markets because we have this trusted group of over 700 referring partners now who have been vetted by us. Who are, um, you know, approved.

[00:32:34] Theo Lamb: And so we trust them that when they identify someone who needs us, we know they really need us. And once you're referred to quest, you can be a client of quest for up to three years. And we hope that that's long enough. But as. As we all know, the cost of food has just gone up and the economic, economic barriers everyone's facing have only increased.

[00:32:56] Theo Lamb: So what we're seeing is we're seeing renewals occur. Folks are having to go back out, get that referral again and continue their relationship with us. 

[00:33:06] Sandy Goldman: Um, Theo, how does Quest differ from going to a food bank? 

[00:33:11] Theo Lamb: Hmm. Yes. So, uh, the food bank model is critical. Necessary, um, and quest, we aim to fill the gap that, um, is growing and occurs for folks who both rely on the food bank.

[00:33:32] Theo Lamb: But then, in order to complete their grocery needs to feed their family members to make sure they're getting all their nutritional value out of their food, then turn. To traditional retail grocery, and that's become more expensive. Well, where quest comes in is we sit right in the middle. We, um, uh, are working to provide a full service grocery model and, um, our prices are significantly less, um, not, not free, but, um, not far.

[00:34:09] Theo Lamb: Uh, and so, and that, and that therein lies. That's the key. It's, you know, you come to quest, it's not a handout. There's a different, uh, I think culture and unfortunately a stigma associated with that in quest. You, you know, if you're a Costco member, you know, you flash your Costco card when you go through the front door.

[00:34:27] Theo Lamb: Well, it's the same at quest. You get to shop for what you want, when you want, you can buy as much as you want, save any limits we have to put on our most highly prized items, and then you can come back when you want. just like you would at a grocery store. And it's the piece, it's, it's the ability to be able to spend your own money and to make your own choices.

[00:34:50] Theo Lamb: It's the dignity piece that really differentiates us from a more traditional food bank. And that is what we feel Is a disruptor in, um, cycles of poverty is the ability to participate economically versus to receive a handout, but we know very well that the majority of our clients also rely on the food bank.

[00:35:15] Sandy Goldman: You've talked about, uh, the work of quest in the sort of intermediate space and providing dignity. Uh, and I know that you survey your clients to find out, uh, you know, what, what are their thoughts? What are their concerns? What do they want to be able to buy that? Maybe they can't buy. Uh, you did something called the cost of groceries report 2024.

[00:35:42] Sandy Goldman: Uh, tell us, because this, um, member engagement is really important to get the feedback. Uh, nobody from Loblaws or, um, Metro is really asking, or Sobeys is asking us, uh, well, what do you think? What do you need? Uh, but you're doing that. So what do you, what are your clients telling you about what they can afford, what they can't afford, what they'd like to afford in order to have a healthy, a healthy and affordable, a diet for themselves and their families?

[00:36:12] Theo Lamb: We decided to take undertake the work of talking to our client communities in a really big and deep way, uh, really for the 1st time this year by launching, um, this, uh, client engagement survey campaign. We aligned it with our client appreciation week. We did all kinds of giveaways and prizes and really, and, and actually I have to say very much inspired by the East Vancouver food co op appreciation weeks.

[00:36:40] Theo Lamb: If you recall those, they were so great. Um, And, you know, it's, it's, um, it requires labor of our clients to ask them what they think. And so we really wanted to build this into, uh, a cycle of value and, uh, reciprocation 

[00:36:55] Sandy Goldman: and 

[00:36:59] Theo Lamb: over 800 of them responded, which is for our first year, great. And they told us exactly what they thought of Quest.

[00:37:09] Theo Lamb: Um, where we could improve upon the kinds of foods they find don't find need want, how they feel about our prices, what they want us to change. And also, what else, you know, what are the other barriers they're facing? We were really interested in understanding like, okay, look, we know you're shopping at quest.

[00:37:30] Theo Lamb: You're facing some kind of economic barrier challenge. What else is contributing to that? And we were able to collect this incredible body of data, and we pulled that data together in our 1st ever, our inaugural cost of groceries report. And we plan to do this report annually. We want to be able to give the public and policy makers and leaders a snapshot of.

[00:37:53] Theo Lamb: According to our clients, um, the barriers and challenges they're facing in addition to the rising cost of food. Um, and, you know, we, we, we discovered a lot. We know that 74 percent of our clients. Need to shop at quest at least once a week. Can we see that in our receding data as well that they also rely on the food bank in addition to what they find at quest?

[00:38:19] Theo Lamb: Um, we know that. 91 percent of all of the clients who are referred to us are also, uh, needing to lean on additional income assistance from the government, which is, it's a pretty big, big number, big number. 

Yeah. 

[00:38:42] Theo Lamb: I think some of the data, like the pieces that really took my breath away, um, and it but to hear it in numbers, 79%.

[00:38:54] Theo Lamb: Or more than three quarters of our clients make less. The 34, 000 a year and 59 percent of those surveyed make less than 25, 000 a year consider every year. Dalhousie University and UBC and other partners put together a food report. Um, it's agnostic from a reporting perspective. It wants to just show. Um, what the data and the projection show about the rising cost of food or the decreasing cost of food, whichever way it could go.

[00:39:26] Theo Lamb: And this year they projected, um, between I think a four and 6 percent increase in the cost of food. Now that's down from where we were at up 12 percent the previous year, but that's still significant. And so the average household, and we're talking average household to Four, uh, in Canada could, can't expect to spend upwards of 16, 000 a year on food.

[00:39:50] Theo Lamb: Now hold that number and then, you know, track over to the fact that, um, more than half of our clients make less than 25, 000 a year. There's not enough left at the end of the month. I mean, no wonder, no wonder our clients and British Columbians. Are struggling, not just with food, but with rent, housing, the cost of education, utilities, food is actually not even at the top of people's list.

[00:40:24] Theo Lamb: It's a decision that comes after, you know, ensuring you have a roof over your head and you have heat moving through the walls. Food then becomes. a secondary consideration, which is also shocking, but we know that from our survey work, that if there's enough left, you'll spend it on what you need and what you need doesn't necessarily equate to what's good for us.

[00:40:47] Theo Lamb: Right. And so the, the nutritional piece becomes really important. Not only is quest providing food, but is it the healthiest and best food we can source and find because we know that when families Who are raising children who are moving through school are eating healthier education outcomes improve then community outcomes, improvement, then economic, it all the source is food.

[00:41:13] Theo Lamb: It's keep people housed, warm and food. And then you begin to transform. 

[00:41:20] Sandy Goldman: Yes, you know, um, it's, it's so true and there is a lot of work being done, uh, for school food programs. This is essential. I taught for many years in, uh, the public school system and, uh, uh, When kids came to school without a full belly, their, their day was, um, their ability to be present was really diminished.

[00:41:46] Sandy Goldman: It was very hard and quite often we were, staff were feeding kids, uh, from food that we kept in the staff room, uh, for those that came to school hungry. Now, There are more robust school food programs. There is a national school food program. Uh, BC has not signed on to it yet. Uh, Newfoundland and Labrador is the first to collaborate with the federal government, but there are all kinds of programs already in place at, uh, the provincial and local levels.

[00:42:16] Sandy Goldman: We have this constant Uh, crisis in food security. What is it that the provincial government could do because we're in the midst of an election cycle? And what can each of us do to bring this to the attention of candidates? And let them know how we can turn this around. What are your thoughts about that?

[00:42:45] Theo Lamb: Yeah. Gosh. Wow. I wish I wish there was, uh, such a straightforward, um, arrow of a response and solution. Uh, we, we think a lot about this a quest, you know, what. What what can we invite, um, our province to do and consider that's elected officials, but it's also the staff working at the province. We're really working to support and develop action plans that come into play.

[00:43:13] Theo Lamb: We have met over the last year with. The ministry of poverty reduction and the ministry of agriculture. Oh, great. We say this in our cost of groceries report for quest. It doesn't make sense that any action is not coming from both of these offices because food is not a strictly nonprofit. Issue. It is not a for profit issue.

[00:43:44] Theo Lamb: It's it's a hybrid of the two. Um, here I am talking about how, you know, we witness our clients struggling. We as a nonprofit organization have to work very, very hard to keep our doors open. We face the same pressures that any nonprofit doesn't BC right now. And, and if you if. And I assure many of your listeners are, are listening really closely to our farmers, to our food producers, to the folks who actually grow and create and work with the commodities to create other food and then distribute that.

[00:44:18] Theo Lamb: Like there's so many good things happening in our province and those producers and business leaders and entrepreneurs need just as much attention and support because they in turn become our food partners. When things are going well, those food partners, they don't just want to move food. That is airmarked for the landfill through an organization like quest.

[00:44:43] Theo Lamb: They actually want to partner with us and make sure our clients have access to their food on a regular basis. But it takes a certain economic environment for those conditions to come together. And so any action plan or strategy that will emerge supporting food security. At a province level needs to involve both of those offices.

[00:45:05] Theo Lamb: It's just Ministry of poverty reduction, not to be talking about the business aspect of this and how our producers and farmers are faring it. It, um, I don't, I don't believe it's going to go that far. 

[00:45:17] Sandy Goldman: Can I ask you something? Yeah. Did you find in your discussions? You spoke to both ministry representatives separately.

[00:45:24] Sandy Goldman: Or is there somebody liaising between the two, which would only make sense on the issues of food security? Is there a liaison that you're aware 

[00:45:33] Theo Lamb: of as far as, uh, we're aware? No. And we actually feel that, um, the government could go even further and consider, um, the, an office of the secretary of food security to actually assign budget and resources, um, to the issue of food security and to act as that point person who is connecting the different departments.

[00:45:58] Theo Lamb: It needs money. It needs budget. You know, and even at the municipal level, one of our, um, recommendations is, you know, like a, a, a, a committed percentage of every annual municipal budget put towards food security initiatives. And, and I also want to be really clear, like, these are, these are overarching. Big capital as strategic recommendations.

[00:46:22] Theo Lamb: I truly believe that some of our best solutions and the best work is happening. on a micro local level. Like I'm talking community by community block to block some of the very best food programming and food security programming you're seeing out there right now is connecting local gardeners, community gardens, the local businesses operating on that block, neighbors looking after neighbors.

[00:46:50] Theo Lamb: Like there's, there's this piece around The making sure that there's budget and resources and an action plan and a strategy happening at the provincial level, but the, the support has got to reach the ground and it has to be geared towards. Organizations like West and food runners and food stash and all of these other groups who are doing incredible work outside.

[00:47:17] Theo Lamb: Of the food bank model. You have to remember that it is a, it's a, it's a strong required model, but it is not the only way through to food security. And I'm not convinced it's a disruptor, but it absolutely keeps people alive. Right. We need to start thinking about, well, how are we actually disrupting these cycles of poverty?

[00:47:39] Theo Lamb: And one of them, you know, Quest believes one of the reasons is you get to participate in the economic model. So you have to think about, okay, who are the outliers right now? And how is this government funding, attention, resource and capacity really supporting organizations and individuals who understand and know the needs of their local community better Then a provincial government.

[00:48:02] Theo Lamb: So there's um, there's sort of horizontal and vertical movement, air game and ground game coming together. When you think about what a, what a provincial food strategy could look like. 

[00:48:13] Sandy Goldman: You know, it's really interesting. I'm going to circle back to something you said at the beginning, which is the dignity of your clients and participating economically.

[00:48:23] Sandy Goldman: Um, by Coming to the market, um, paying, you know, a nominal amount for for groceries. Do you find that over time that I don't know if you've tracked your clients over time, that participating economically has helped them to move forward in their lives? Uh, in other ways, I'm, I'm just wondering, rather than going to the food bank, which of course is a necessity, but you're, you've got a different kind of model.

[00:48:51] Sandy Goldman: I'm just wondering about outcomes down the road for people. 

[00:48:54] Theo Lamb: Yeah, and we've actually started asking those questions this year as well. So we are, we've begun to track, for example, um, our renewal rate, you know, we've got, um, this active, Um, community of clients who need us over a 3 year stretch, but how many folks, um, are able to release us after that 3 years?

[00:49:17] Theo Lamb: Because we know that, you know, there's a percentage of our clients. Who are facing systemic barriers year over year. They actually, in our latest survey told us specifically what those barriers are. And then there's a percentage of our clients who may have faced a grief event, experienced a grief event, lost a job.

[00:49:41] Theo Lamb: Maybe they had a health diagnosis. They went through a divorce. These are, these are events that happen in our lives that are unplanned and that's Um, can completely disrupt our economic security and if certain support systems are not in place, you can stay in that level of disruption forever. And so we know that quest serves a percentage of folks who just need us for a little bit of time, but then.

[00:50:09] Theo Lamb: Not not anymore, not any further. We also have the assumption, um, and we're looking more into this to really test it. If you're going to the food bank, if you're going to quest, if you're relying on other food security programs, and then you're still going to the lower cost, traditional retail grocers, the hope is that the food bank is the 1st organization.

[00:50:30] Theo Lamb: You're going to release. And then quest and then additional programming, and then you're, you're fully back in that economic cycle of shopping at the grocery store. Um, but it's a tough piece to follow. It's a, it's a cycle. We're really interested in understanding and better moving forward. And uh, I don't know, Sandy, let's talk a year from now and we can talk about our, our renewal rate.

[00:50:55] Theo Lamb: Okay. 

[00:50:55] Sandy Goldman: I think it, I think it's really important to see, um, because these could be stepping stones to, um, to renewal for, for people and for, and for their health and their, um, yeah, their health and well being, you know, one point I just wanted to make before we close, you talked about local solutions and we've reported a lot on that.

[00:51:16] Sandy Goldman: You remember during the pandemic how people were really pitching in and helping each other out and people started to grow their own food because of food scarcity in the markets and you know, that's continued. Education, helping children know where their food comes from. There's the, the boom and in school gardens is, is wonderful to see.

[00:51:37] Sandy Goldman: I know on Galeano Island where Uh, I spend a fair bit of time. They have a tremendous, um, community food program to teach people how to become more resilient, how to can your food, how to make your own jam, how to, um, uh, make excellent soups and other products and, and people are involved and, and, uh, from the other places around Canada where we've talked about, um, food programs, they're all at that micro level.

[00:52:05] Sandy Goldman: Uh, help neighbor helping neighbor. So if I'm somebody who's concerned about food security, uh, what, what should I be asking the, uh, provincial representatives coming to my door over the next few weeks? What, what is the ask? 

[00:52:22] Theo Lamb: I think the first ask is, are they thinking about food security at all? And what is their plan to address that?

[00:52:31] Theo Lamb: I think you can specifically, um, point to the rising cost of groceries and how both food bank and Quest, uh, client community numbers are way up. Um, and, and then really holds our, you know, Current and potential leaders to account for how they're thinking about this issue. Now, we asked our clients what their biggest barriers were.

[00:52:59] Theo Lamb: In addition to the rising cost of groceries, the number one response, 96 percent said the cost of living, which is, uh, it's an overarching issue. It was followed then by the cost of food. The cost of housing barriers to employment, or feeling that they're underemployed or for retired folks feeling like they don't have enough sustainable income to keep them going.

[00:53:25] Theo Lamb: Uh, 68 percent identified access to social assistance. We had 61 percent say they just didn't have the means to get around town to get the groceries they needed a lack of proper infrastructure and transportation. And then 60 percent said structural inequities and racism and the impact that has on their day to day life and their children.

[00:53:44] Theo Lamb: So it's, it's, it's an overwhelming list. And I think you can talk about food with the folks who are knocking on your door. You can also talk about any one of these items and connect back. 

[00:53:57] Sandy Goldman: Right, these are really important issues to be discussing, uh, at at the time of this, uh, campaign and we really appreciate you bringing them to our attention as we, uh, hopefully move forward into some changes.

[00:54:13] Sandy Goldman: Uh, in food security policy, uh, building more housing, lifting more people out of poverty and helping them to realize, um, their very best, their, their healthiest best selves. Uh, Theo, thanks for joining us today on Each for All. Thanks for the work of Quest, uh, non profit grocery markets, helping people have affordable and healthy food in a dignified manner.

[00:54:40] Sandy Goldman: I'm really holding on to that, um, People deserve that and you're filling an important gap in society at this time. So yes, let's track back in a year and see where your clients are at and see if we've made progress on food security, uh, across BC, across Canada for that matter. People, it's a very rich province and rich country and, and people should not be, uh, wanting for good food in their bellies.

[00:55:11] Sandy Goldman: Theo, take care. All the best to everyone there. And, uh, we'll look forward to speaking again. Bye for now. 

[00:55:17] Theo Lamb: again. Bye for now. 

[00:55:19] Sandy Goldman: That was Theo Lam, Executive Director of Quest Non Profit Grocery Markets. For more information on this organization and how it helps stem food insecurity, go to questoutreach. org.

[00:55:33] Sandy Goldman: Volunteers and donations are always welcome. That's it for this election edition of Each for All, The Cooperative Connection. Thanks to my fellow cooperators, Robin Puga and Joshua Peterman, for their help with tonight's show. Please be sure to vote. Advance polls begin October 10th. Election day is October 19th.

[00:55:58] Sandy Goldman: And in honor of the upcoming election, We leave you with a little Diddy from CBC Vancouver's, Justin McElroy. I'm Sandy Goldman. Thanks for listening. Stay safe and have a cooperative week.