Earth Day Episode
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Sandy Goldman: Welcome to Each for All The Cooperative Connection, your weekly report on the cooperative sector, proudly broadcasting on Vancouver Co op Radio, 100. 5 FM, and online at coopradio. org. I'm Sandy Goldman, back in the studio live this week with my co host Robin Puga. Who's going to stand up and save the earth?

Sandy Goldman: Who's going to say she's had enough? Who's going to take on the big machine? Who's going to stand up and save the earth? It all starts with you and me. Poignant, timely, and even more urgent words penned by Canadian songwriter Neil Young. In this episode, we look at two ways we can help save the earth.

Sandy Goldman: Renewable energy co ops, and reducing food waste. Robin, over to you. 

Robin Puga: Thanks very much, Sandy, and it's great to be back here in the studio with you. And, uh, tonight on the show we're going to open with uh, an interview about uh, energy cooperatives here in Canada. We have Dr. Martin Boucher. A faculty lecturer at the Johnston Shoyama Graduate School of Public Policy at the University of Saskatchewan.

Robin Puga: And he leads the online Masters of Public Administration with research focused on the public sector entrepreneurship and energy transition acceleration. His interests include energy justice. Comparative public policy, low income energy efficiency, renewable energy cooperatives, public sector entrepreneurship, decentralized energy, and small modular reactors.

Robin Puga: Lots of interesting stuff going on here. And in addition to his research activities, uh, Dr. Boucher is a founding board member and current president of the Community Energy Coalition. Energy Cooperative of Canada and that's what we're here to talk about today. Uh, we have, uh, him on the phone from Saskatchewan.

Robin Puga: Uh, Dr. Boucher, are you there? Yes, I'm here. Fantastic. Great to have you tonight here on Each for All. Thanks for joining us and staying up a little late there in Saskatoon. So, uh, I thought, uh, I thought I'd like to just start out by asking you what turned on your light bulb for renewable energy. And why are you concentrating on this so much in your, in your studies?

Martin Boucher: I've been doing this for a long time now. I guess, uh, it's hard to think about where it all began, but I, you know, I guess the basic answer is I'm concerned about greenhouse gas emissions and, you know, moving us, uh, move us in the right direction with climate change. And I see renewable energy as one of those tools and in particular, um, the role of communities, um, and their place in renewable energy as a sort of a nice opportunity to move us forward.

Robin Puga: And so, um, I mean, you're talking about a lot of public policy, renewable energy, you mentioned about communities looking to address these challenges themselves. And through the cooperative model, it sounds like this is a vehicle for this change. 

Martin Boucher: Yeah, sure. Yeah, like, I think like One of the things, you know, that I've, I guess, noticed to your point about all the fanfare and excitement about renewable energy, clean energy, climate change, and things like that, um, it's still the case that the energy transition isn't, um, Uh, is it moving fast enough?

Martin Boucher: So we really need kind of a lot of a lot of options. Um, one of my research areas is community energy, and I can go into that. Another is energy efficiency. Another is, um, small modular reactors, and there's sort of different reasons why I think all those are, um, are really good options. But I think we're, we're sort of at the point where we really need sort of an all hands on deck Um, you know, approach.

Martin Boucher: Um, and if we're talking about communities, um, I think, you know, things like public buy in is really critical. And there's also what I've seen, particularly with community energy coops, because I've been particularly involved with, uh, renewable energy coops across this country from a research perspective, but also, um, directly being involved with, um, community energy cooperatives.

Martin Boucher: What I've seen is there is a really strong appetite in communities all across this country to support renewable energy in this cooperative form, which really kind of warms my heart and gets me excited, um, and but from a public policy perspective, there's not a lot of, uh, really supportive policy to support this.

Martin Boucher: So I see that as a kind of an opportunity. There's a, there's a, there's kind of a gap. There's seems to be a strong appetite. Like, for instance, when I say appetite, like a lot of these communities. Thank you. um, Renewable energy cooperatives when they go to do. These are investment based coops when they do, um, you know, calls for projects or ask folks in the community to buy shares.

Martin Boucher: They typically do well. They get folks to, to, to sort of, you know, um, be involved in that way. Um, but there's, there's still, uh, there's still, I think, a growth opportunity. Um, for renewable energy cooperatives in Canada, and there's and despite. I think some of the success that renewable energy cooperatives have, there's, there's, uh, I think limited policy support, um, for community energy co ops.

Martin Boucher: There has been in the past, but that's kind of, uh, shifted. 

Robin Puga: Well, um, that's interesting because it, uh, sounds, and from what I'm reading of your bio, you've come from academia and, uh, are, uh, doing research, learning about these policies that need to be developed and now participating and driving that policy.

Robin Puga: Um, How do you, uh, how do you see your role here in this new organization that's forming? Sure. 

Martin Boucher: So how it happened was, uh, you know, uh, a colleague and I, you know, uh, another researcher we did, uh, we decided to do a census of community energy cooperatives across the country and, and, uh, and, and from that we, we held a, We called it a, you know, a summit of renewable energy cooperative leaders in Ottawa.

Martin Boucher: And that was just the past summer to sort of bring folks together. That was the first time ever. We had community cooperatives leaders in this space, um, together. Um, and then from that came, um, a desire to form an organization. Um, you know, a co op of co ops, if you will, and, uh, you know, I was, I was, I was asked to sort of lead, uh, lead for the time being as a, you know, as a, as someone maybe from the, from the outside that can kind of maybe see a bit of the landscape.

Martin Boucher: So that's kind of the nexus of my role, I guess, as president of Community Energy Cooperative Canada. Um, and, uh, and we're really seeing it, uh, pick up steam. We're having our first AGM. We're doing it Halifax this June. We're going to be following that by another summit or second summit now. Um, and we're seeing a lot of sort of interest and appetite.

Martin Boucher: So it's, uh, yeah, no, it's really, it's really neat to see, um, to see folks, uh, come together. So I think there's, uh, there's a, sort of a nice opportunity. 

Robin Puga: Awesome. Well, uh, my colleague here, Sandy, has a question for you real quick. 

Sandy Goldman: Got me on there, Robin? I do. Martin, it's Sandy. It's, it's good to connect with you again.

Martin Boucher: Yeah, and I hear from you, Sandy. 

Sandy Goldman: Um, Martin, uh, for our listeners, was on our show, uh, back when the pandemic started, when we were looking at the effects of, uh, online learning for both, uh, faculty and students, and Martin teaches online, has a lot of experience in that, uh, in that venue, so he was a great help to the people that he was teaching, and also, uh, helping us understand the pressures on students and faculty.

Sandy Goldman: Martin, this, uh, census that, uh, the Centre did, the Centre for the Study of Cooperatives did on renewable energy co ops. What were some of the findings? What was coming out of that that, uh, drove this next step, uh, that, uh, led to the, uh, creation of the Canadian, uh, energy co op? 

Martin Boucher: Yeah, sure. And, yeah, we have some other reports, and we have some sort of policy papers.

Martin Boucher: And things like that. They're shorter. So if folks want to take a look, I would encourage them to, you know, go on our, the CCC website or the Canadian Centre for the Study of Co ops, if they want to do some fun reading about, uh, the role of renewable energy co ops in the country. Um, so in terms of the, uh, The overall findings are 47 co ops, uh, across the country.

Martin Boucher: Um, they, they look, uh, most, the vast majority of them are, uh, investment co ops, so that, so folks buy, um, you know, shares in the, uh, renewable energy co ops. Uh, the majority of the co ops are in Ontario, um, partly because of population, also because of historic policies with feed in tariff programs, so the Green Energy Act, uh, Was in place in Ontario for a number of years, created really perfect conditions for a lot of renewable energy co ops to form.

Martin Boucher: They had sort of these fixed rates of electricity so they could use to sort of establish, you know, a long term kind of business model for their co ops. So, um, what we're seeing now is there's no more new co ops forming in Ontario. There's some in Saskatchewan, um, Alberta starting to form, um, and the country as a whole, it's a bit stagnant, so it's not really growing, but overall kind of stagnant.

Martin Boucher: What we've heard from co op leaders across the country, um, is that they're, they're challenged with sort of capacity issues. So the majority of The folks running these, and this is probably true for a lot of co op sectors, but the majority of folks running these community energy co ops are, it's volunteer sort of working boards.

Martin Boucher: Um, so they're, uh, you know, they're, they're doing sort of wonderful things for the community, um, but they're, most of the co ops, there's only a handful of co ops that have like a staff position or a half staff position that really help them, uh, manage that. Uh, what we also, so what we also heard, uh, And this looks different every province because of the nature of federalism and the nature of the jurisdiction, uh, the jurisdictional differences with electricity generation, but the sort of policy environment is different, obviously, in every province because, uh, because the electricity system is incredibly different from every province.

Martin Boucher: Um, so there are some differences there. Um, so, you know, the impetus for forming the CCC, Community Energy Co op of Canada, was to learn from Europe. So we actually spoke with some of our European colleagues who have a second tier co op. They have a lot more success with community energy co ops in, um, in many of the European countries.

Martin Boucher: Um, and what this sort of second tier entity, um, co op, co ops, if you will, does is a lot of sort of support for all the other co ops. So that's, that would be the grand vision for the CCC, uh, would be. Uh, to provide this kind of to one to provide sort of policy advice at the federal provincial level, um, uh, for, uh, you know, pathways forward if, if jurisdictions want to support community co ops, but also provide capacity support for, uh, renewable energy co ops across the country.

Martin Boucher: So this could take the form of like. There's all you have to do a security commission report you you need legal advice you need There's all kinds of replicating kind of activities that occur and there's opportunities to Serve support and this is very common in the co op world is is and it's a common function of second tier entities like this So that's that's kind of the vision.

Martin Boucher: We're just Um, starting out, but we're, I think we have a lot of momentum, but that's kind of, I guess, the problem we're trying to solve as, uh, Community Energy Co ops Canada. 

Sandy Goldman: Um, Martin, are most of the co ops solar, or is there wind and, uh, any other forms? Most are solar, yeah. 

Martin Boucher: Yeah, most are solar. There's some, there's some wind.

Martin Boucher: There's, um, some bio in Quebec. Uh, we actually have a map. Uh, so again, I'm going to direct everyone to the, the website. We, so part of our census is we, we actually did a map. We mapped every single co op across the country and, and, uh, mapped out specifically what you're talking about, which is, um, the, Uh, the kind of, uh, energy co op or the kind of generation that they, uh, that they're involved in.

Martin Boucher: But the most common is, uh, is solar. Because solar is sort of nicely modular. It can be small, it can be big. Um, so there's sort of a nice alignment with, with, uh, how, uh, community co ops tend to scale up. 

Sandy Goldman: And as you say, there's a lot of buy in at the local level. Um, I know that on the Gulf Islands, uh, there's a number of energy co ops and people really want to make a difference in their lives, in their communities, and in the way that they're using energy.

Sandy Goldman: And we know in the Peace region as well, in the North. Um, so yes, they do need the support going forward. What kind of, uh, policy changes would they like to see at the federal level that would make things easier for these energy co ops to really take hold? 

Martin Boucher: Federal level, less involvement. So the, the, the federal level would be, um, providing financial support for something like, you know, an option could be, um, Uh, the federal government could provide support through the CCC to sort of distribute sort of money for projects that, you know, that could be a support, but really a major part of this is under the jurisdiction of the federal government.

Martin Boucher: Um, so most of the policies related to, um, electricity generation, um, is, and by most it's like 99%, you know, the 1 percent is, is, you know, nuclear policy and things like that. Um, So the majority of policies at the provincial level, and it is quite different, um, for, for all the different, uh, provinces. So it looks different for every province.

Martin Boucher: It's actually a re that's our second phase of the research right now, is we're doing a policy scan of all the provinces and trying to find a paint a picture of what's appropriate for, um, each province. So we're, we're actually right in the middle of that. So that's my research hat, um, uh, that I'm wearing with, uh, with that one.

Martin Boucher: Um, but, you know, It would, it would be things like, so the supportive policies, uh, for, for community energy, um, things like perhaps virtual, virtual net metering, perhaps, you know, longer term kind of fixed contracts. Um, perhaps something within the Securities Commission that allows, creates an easier time for, for co ops, um, to, uh, to, to participate.

Martin Boucher: Again, it sort of looks different, um, for every, uh, province, but there are solutions, there are approaches. Um, that's, uh, that's the next, uh, that's the next phase that we're, that we're really working on. Oh, 

Robin Puga: that's great. Um, I was Also curious just to hear a bit more about the sort of energy industry because I am not that well versed I have to admit I you know, uh, Don't think I have an uh, maybe I do have an option for community energy In my neighborhood, but here in in vancouver Uh, I don't feel like we do have this option.

Robin Puga: What, what does that look like on, uh, on the sector scale in the different provinces? Uh, how much are community, uh, energy cooperatives able to provide people with the energy they need for their daily lives compared to the other, uh, sources that people are getting it from? 

Martin Boucher: Sure. Yeah. So none of the co ops would provide, this is where it gets, uh, so, you know, feel free to ask other questions if I'm, if I'm overcomplicating this, but, um, so how the co ops function right now by virtue of the policy structure is they are investment co ops.

Martin Boucher: So they wouldn't be provided the energy. You need you'd be buying a share, and it would be, um, and it differs very much on the co op and the agreement they have with the province. Um, but they would be sort of selling in some form electricity, um, to the utility. Um, who then sort of sells to the consumer.

Martin Boucher: So back to the grid, basically. Yeah, back to the grid. So it wouldn't be a relationship like this energy is cut, but that is exactly what it could be. The vision, um, there could be ways. In co ops, um, even right now, like in Alaska, the States, there's even sort of, um, there's, there's places where co ops play this kind of active role with the consumer.

Martin Boucher: And that would be, that would. That would certainly be a potential vision of what it could look like where you could have an agreement like that right now. If you want to participate, um, it'd be, you know, there are other ones in BC, um, you could potentially, you know, buy a share like that's what it would, that's, that's essentially, but that's typically what, what it would look like.

Martin Boucher: Um, and then, and then you sort of get dividends on the share, um, and you'd be participating in that way. But I think the big vision certainly is to have a more active relationship with the consumer and the co op. I 

Robin Puga: did want to ask about a few of the terms that we, uh, talked about from your bio. Uh, one was decentralized energy.

Robin Puga: What's, what is that? 

Martin Boucher: Sure. Yeah. That's like community energy co ops. It's sort of scaling down the energy system, um, where there's, uh, um, you know, it could be things like exactly what I'm saying with community co ops. 

Robin Puga: Okay. So what you're describing 

Martin Boucher: there. Okay. That would be sort of an example of it. Yeah.

Robin Puga: And then, um, you had also mentioned, uh, energy justice. 

Martin Boucher: You know, when people think about the energy system, they have sort of, you know, different, there's, like any, like any institution or system we have in society, there's sort of underpinning values and things like that, that we have, and it's not, it's also the case with our, with our energy system, and I think things like, You know, um, there's things like community energy create opportunities, um, to have maybe different values embedded with our energy system.

Martin Boucher: Most of the utilities right now, they operate within a structure of kind of safe, reliable, affordable electricity for consumers, which are good. These are fantastic values, right? These are these are the kind of values that have operated for our Take care. With our sort of grids in our early our utilities for the past 100 years, safe, affordable, you know, um, reliable electricity, but their potential sort of other sort of values that we could have.

Martin Boucher: And I think that's where community energy comes in or public participation and things like that. And I know that that's difficult for utilities because that's they've done a really wonderful job of of of providing, um, you know, electricity in a within a particular framework. But I think there's an appetite from the public to be.

Martin Boucher: And in communities often to be involved in, um, in different ways, um, and, and sort of embody different values that haven't been, um, explicitly embodied in these, uh, in these institutions in the past. 

Robin Puga: Okay. Um, and then the last term that I'm, I just don't know that much about is this idea of the, um, the small modular reactors.

Robin Puga: Uh, this is not something I'm familiar with. I mean, yeah. How does that play into renewable? 

Martin Boucher: This one's going to get me into trouble. Um, uh, uh, uh, small modular reactors, small, you know, or small nuclear reactors. Um, uh, this is sort of something that we're, we're, we're seeing the technology mature quite a bit.

Martin Boucher: Um, and the promise, uh, for things like SMR, I should have the caveat that we don't have a small modular reactor in Canada yet, although there are, uh, plans. Uh, it looks like the first one will go up in Ontario at the Darlington Power Plant. Um, um, but there are sort of agreements for this, but the promise of SMRs is, uh, is their scale is how much electricity output, um, that they have.

Martin Boucher: And that's, that's another dimension of thinking about reducing emissions. Um, I think community energy and things like that are really important, but I also think we really need to think. Concretely of, of, uh, the kind of scale we need to really move the dial down on, um, uh, on greening the grid 

Robin Puga: and, and speaking of greening the grid.

Robin Puga: Um, I know we are still burning coal for energy in Canada. Uh, is that still a fairly significant portion of the energy that we see come to the grid? 

Martin Boucher: It's quite small overall depends on the province though. Um, you know, some Saskatchewan, um, Saskatchewan and Alberta like, uh, would have some, but overall, uh, we actually have a fairly green grid as a, as a, as a country.

Martin Boucher: Um, Um, but there's still room for improvement because coal is quite small, and that's partly due to the, there's a fairly aggressive policy, um, a while back in Ontario to phase out coal, and that was where the majority of our coal came from, and, uh, in Ontario at the time, I think it, if I remember correctly, represented something like 25 percent of the generation, so it's a lot, and then they completely phased it out in something like 10 years, which is, is actually, um, Uh, actually really, really incredible and fast, um, uh, compared to what most utilities around the world are, are able, uh, have been able to do.

Martin Boucher: So that's been, that's sort of a Canadian success story. Hmm. Cool. Is that very aggressive? It came with challenges that Ontario think is still facing. Uh, 'cause it was quite a aggressive shift, but we, we've seen a shift. So we had, we, but we do, you know, we do still have other provinces. Uh, with coal, but it's quite, uh, small relative to the overall generation.

Martin Boucher: But we, we, those are, that's low hanging fruit. Like those are definitely energy options where we have, uh, we have better, uh, approaches to. 

Sandy Goldman: For 

Robin Puga: sure. 

Sandy Goldman: Martin, do you, do you see, um, the power of renewable energy, be it through co ops or, or other organizations to really have an impact on reducing greenhouse gases?

Martin Boucher: I don't think that's gonna be the only solution. I don't think like so. Right now. It's a fraction. Like if you added up all the Renewable energy co ops in Canada right now and how much generation it doesn't even register. It's a fraction of a percentage of overall electricity generation. However, I think there's a tremendous opportunity for for new energy co ops to have much larger impact than they do right now, but I don't think that they're going to be the, you know, the The solution that sort of solves everything.

Martin Boucher: And that's where I kind of insert things like energy efficiency and small modular actors and other options alongside community co ops to really to really move the dial. But I don't think. Community energy co ops are the only, that will be sort of like the only thing or be the, the, the, uh, the, the, the big winner, um, in terms of our, our energy generation.

Sandy Goldman: And I guess raising public awareness about things like, uh, renewable energy co ops and small modular reactors and, and all the things that we've been discussing tonight, is this part of the work of the second tier co op? 

Martin Boucher: Yeah, we're, we're trying to get the word out. One thing I've learned through this, so I started off in the renewable energy space and I've been learning more about co ops.

Martin Boucher: And what I've been learning is not a lot of folks know about co ops or they think they know about co ops. And we talk to them and they're like, oh, you don't know, you don't know much about this sort of structure. So I think it's, it's, I think most folks get renewable energy. I think that's in the sort of the public sphere, um, quite a bit.

Martin Boucher: They get clean energy. Um, I think they. Roughly get the idea of like sort of community energy in a vague sense, but then Cooperative renewable energy is, you know what that looks like. I think that is very, um, there's still a lot of work, both with the public. That's one problem, but even, um, even on the political or or the policy side with folks that work in the public service utilities, they're often confused by the model.

Martin Boucher: But what I do find is when I engage with folks, Um, for instance, working utilities, they like the idea of support. They're like, Oh, this is great. Like, this is an awesome model. Um, uh, we really want to support it, but they just, they, you know, existed or they don't know how to work with it. It doesn't fit within the frameworks or the thinking that they operate, um, under they think, Oh, it's, you know, it's, uh, it's a sort of a community nonprofit or it's a business that I work with or it's government, but like co ops sort of fit, especially investment co ops fit in this sort of weird space, um, in people's minds and I think.

Martin Boucher: There's, there's certainly some work to be done to, um, to get folks up to, you know, up to snuffling on what that looks like, but I do find when they do, there's, they get excited about it. 

Robin Puga: Well, thanks so much for, uh, sharing with us your insights about this and, uh, the exciting, uh, opportunity here with the Community Energy Co op of Canada.

Robin Puga: Um, we'll look forward to hearing more about the success here and, uh, we'll see what happens with the policy level changes. Thanks, uh, very much for joining us this evening. 

Martin Boucher: One, one pitch, our website, go to CCC, um, uh, check out our website and as well, we have our AGM, which will be, our AGM and summit, um, which will be, um, online, we'll have an online option June 8th and 9th, so hopefully folks can attend.

Robin Puga: And that's going to be in Halifax, right? As well? 

Martin Boucher: It's going to be, it's going to be Halifax, but we're going to have an online component as well. 

Robin Puga: Great. And I understand you're also presenting at Congress. for the Co ops of Mutuals Canada. Yes, I am. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time tonight, and we'll let you go.

Robin Puga: We'll talk to you soon. Thanks very much. 

Martin Boucher: Yeah, thanks a lot. Bye. 

Robin Puga: Bye. Bye. So that was martin boucher the president of community energy co op canada And for more information, you can check out the cecc website at cecooperative. ca And we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back for more each for all the cooperative connection here on vancouver co op radio