EFA2024-02-20_HousingUpdateWithThom_BCCAEvents_inteerviewsonly
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Sandy Goldman: I'm Sandy Goldman, and you're listening to Each for All, the Cooperative Connection on Vancouver Co op Radio, 100. 5 FM and online at coopradio. org. Well, we're back in the studio tonight, the first time in over a year. And we're thrilled to be here. I'm with my colleague Robin Puga. And we have a very special guest.

Sandy Goldman: In fact, the same guest we had a year ago. Tom Armstrong is here. He's the CEO of the Cooperative Housing Federation of BC. And tonight we're going to be talking about housing. I'll throw it over to you, Robin. 

Robin Puga: Excited to be here as well. Yes, it is great to be back in the studio here. Down on Columbia Street in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Robin Puga: And Sandy, thank you so much for arranging our interviews for this evening. And thank you, Tom, for making it down here to the station. Tonight we have with us Tom Armstrong, the CEO Chief Executive Officer of the Co op Housing Federation of B. C. And excited to talk about co op housing here tonight.

Thom Armstrong: Couldn't be happier to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It hardly seems like a year, does it? 

Robin Puga: I don't know. Here we are. We go by pretty quick, I guess. Yeah, let's jump right into it here. We have lots to talk about. It has been a whole year since we've chatted about Housing and specifically co op housing.

Robin Puga: But just in this last week, it's been a roller coaster of announcements. February 13th, we heard about a new housing program from the province, BC builds. And this sounds like it's quite the combination of city participation, provincial funds. And now we heard today a massive investment from The federal government.

Robin Puga: Do you want to tell us about this new housing program and how it's landing here? 

Thom Armstrong: It's pretty exciting. I have to say so for so long, the. People have been trying to figure out how to crack the nut on the supply problem. How do we get new, affordable supply into the marketplace, particularly homes that are affordable to middle income people?

Thom Armstrong: And, some time ago, the Premier appointed Lisa Helps, the former mayor of Victoria. To act as his special advisor to help put this program together and Lisa helps was we just went out of her way to consult the private sector, the community housing sector financers, investors communities, municipalities.

Thom Armstrong: About what was missing from current efforts to get new housing developed. And, we all said the same thing, essentially land how do you get affordable land into the equation? Financing, how do you get cheap debt to invest over time? Are there going to be grants to create deep affordability?

Thom Armstrong: And finally, What in the heck are you going to do about that slow municipal approval process that just grinds every housing application into the ground? And lo and behold, the BC Builds program contains elements of all of those drivers of housing affordability. So public, co op, non profit, underutilized land.

Thom Armstrong: is part of the equation. So is the requirement for a speeded up municipal approval process, 12 to 18 months from gleam in the eye to building permit. 2 billion provincially of affordable financing to get rotating through the construction cycle. And finally, grants of almost a billion dollars to deepen affordability for at least 20 percent of the homes that are going to be built under B.

Thom Armstrong: C. Bill. So, this is quite a groundbreaking initiative, and the government has always said, the premier has said, and the minister of housing has said for a while, if only we could get the federal government to the table. Not necessarily with a new program, but just to match the investment we're making, to complement the efforts that we're making.

Thom Armstrong: And, to my surprise, I have to admit the Prime Minister arrived in town today, stood beside the Premier and the Mayor of Vancouver, And said, we are so impressed with what's being done in BC. We're going to match that 2 billion in affordable financing. So now the program is actually going to deploy 4 billion.

Thom Armstrong: In affordable construction financing paired with the almost billion dollars in grants to make homes affordable free land, which is going to come to the table either from municipalities or existing co ops and nonprofits or crown land or, even municipally serviced land around fire halls, transit stations, schools and all packaged in a One easy one stop shopping so that we can all tap into it and get moving and we can hardly wait and the first site announced Today was a co op.

Thom Armstrong: And where is that? It's very exciting. It's so new It doesn't even have a name, but it's right on the corner of Davie and Seymour in Vancouver there are a bunch of abandoned buildings on the corner of that site right now, but What an iconic location. And it'll be 112 new co op homes, studios, ones, twos, three bedrooms, designed for every household size, every income you can imagine.

Thom Armstrong: And we can't wait to start 

Robin Puga: digging. That is really exciting. Now I have to say the BC Builds Housing Program does sound vaguely familiar to the Community Land Trust that we've talked about a lot over the past many years. Where you've got city investment, local investment, provincial investment all coming together to try and address this housing affordability crisis.

Robin Puga: Did they take inspiration from that work? 

Thom Armstrong: They sure did. And when I said Lisa helps. Reached out to the community and really engaged the housing community in a conversation about what would work. And, of course, the Community Land Trust was there to say, we've got a track record, we've delivered outcomes that have made a real difference in people's lives, and that should be a centerpiece in the new program.

Thom Armstrong: And lo and behold, it is. 

Robin Puga: Well, that's pretty, pretty phenomenal to hear this. This new housing program and such a massive investment. Now, you've mentioned the sort of target demographic here being middle income. Is this still going to address housing affordability 

Thom Armstrong: for everyone? Well, that's the really important thing to keep in mind.

Thom Armstrong: This does not replace the government's existing investment in the community housing fund. So, one thing to keep an eye on in this week's provincial budget is the maintenance of the current investment going forward. I mean, the government's invested really a total of 18 billion dollars over a 10 year span in housing.

Thom Armstrong: So it's mind blowing How historic this investment has been. It dwarfs every other contribution made by all of the other provinces and the federal government combined. Like we've spoken about that before. So, so a program focused on, on middle income folks, and we're talking any 85 to 165 thousand a year with a 20 percent Rent gear to income component fills a really important niche in the housing continuum.

Thom Armstrong: But again, does not replace the more deeply affordable homes that the government has invested in and will continue to invest in. 

Robin Puga: Okay. And so, I mean, with these massive investments. Are we going to have the tools to tamper the housing market that has seemed out of control for the last decade?

Thom Armstrong: Well, temper is a good word because that would be probably the most optimistic we can be. We, we dug ourselves a three decade hole in housing supply and affordability. And I know the government's attracting a lot of criticism for not being able to solve a three decade problem in one term.

Thom Armstrong: But, I think we have to say, like, let's be realistic here. And, everyone expects BC to attract a million new residents. In the next 10 years and the supply problem is starting to feel like a bit of a, treadmill you really never make it to the front. But this is going to have a much, much bigger impact than if we had done nothing or if we'd done less.

Thom Armstrong: So job's not done. And it must, boy, it must be frustrating you to be government in power at any level. They make a massive historic investment, like 2 billion and then another 2 billion from the feds. And people like me are saying, ah, that's great, but not enough. Gotta do more. 

Robin Puga: Well, I was pessimistically also going to say we've heard of large investments from the federal government in the past, but often they're tied to an election cycle.

Thom Armstrong: Funny how that works, eh? Yeah. Now, we're a little further out from the Projected date of the federal election than we are from the provincial election. Provincial election is October, but you know, in a lot of the agreements, the government's signing go beyond that election. So, I mean, I'm, I'm of two minds about it.

Thom Armstrong: One, it's easy to be cynical, but I'm glad that governments focus efforts on investment in housing and other essential social services around the invest, the election cycle, because what else would drive them? So. I'm fine with it. You see an election on the horizon, you pump a lot of money into a key public service like housing, works for me.

Robin Puga: Well, it is amazing to see this come together at four billion dollars and a lot of other programs happening here in British Columbia and beyond. One that I did want to ask about which I think also has a co op connection is the rental protection fund. This started not too long ago this year or 2023.

Robin Puga: And so, there was a, an announcement that the community land trust is is assisting in distributing the rental protection fund or managing it. You tell us about the fund and what you're, is it housing central or the community land trust that's doing the ..

Thom Armstrong: Yeah, I'm so happy to talk about this, cause this is, sometimes it seems like political advocacy is like a thankless job.

Thom Armstrong: You just, work and you grind and you repeat yourself, seems ad nauseum. And we worked on the rental protection fund for the better part of four years. In advocating to government and on a very serious problem, right? We've lost in the last census period, more than a hundred thousand homes in BC renting at 1, 200 a month or cheaper.

Thom Armstrong: And that's because older buildings get bought up by investors, by real estate investment trusts, they get renovated, tenants get evicted or properties get redeveloped, and the rents double, triple, quadruple, and those homes are the most affordable homes in the purpose built rental housing market and as the new CEO of the Rental Protection Fund is fond of saying, the most affordable housing is the housing we've already got, and that was just disappearing, so imagine being focused on new housing supply.

Thom Armstrong: So you're rolling that rug out in front of you and for every foot of rug you roll out in front, three to four feet are rolling up behind you. And the net impact on the affordable housing stock, the purpose built rental stock in BC was just devastating. So, we're making this argument with our colleagues from across the country and lo and behold, last a week or year ago January the premier and the minister stood with us outside a co-op in Burnaby on a very cold day, and announced that he was investing $500 million in the rental protection fund and not administered through BC housing.

Thom Armstrong: He, what he said that day was that he wanted the fund to be an expression of his faith. in partnership with the community housing sector. So, they had encouraged us to create a new non profit society. The three members of the society are the Co op Housing Federation of B. C., the B. C. Non Profit Housing Association, and the Aboriginal Housing Management Association.

Thom Armstrong: And the three CEOs of those associations are the board of the Rental Protection Fund. And we received that transfer, 500 million into our account. That was a day to remember, I'll tell you, because we started, we went down to the Vancity branch under the office. Opened up an account, put 5 in it, and next thing you know, there's 500 million, which is quite a change in your monthly balance.

Thom Armstrong: And, it took about a year. Imagine, I mean, some of the commentators were saying look at these These nonprofit co op folks, it's taking them a year to get the fund set up. But imagine if we'd done it a little more quickly, they would have said, look at these reckless nonprofit housing providers.

Thom Armstrong: They're mismanaging the taxpayer's money. But in fact, we're not we have a stellar team. They're. Prequalifying nonprofit housing providers, including the Community Land Trust, to buy up purpose built rental properties in the market and hold them hold the rents at the current levels. So to maintain affordability for tenants who in any other situation would have been terrified.

Thom Armstrong: To see their properties bought up because, the business model, you buy them, you flip them rent eviction, dem eviction, the, you've seen that movie. So, so the fund is fully operational now. You're going to see in the next two to three months, a blizzard of announcements from non profit housing providers.

Thom Armstrong: Across the province. This is a program that reaches to every corner of the province and you'll see thousands of purpose built rental homes move from the private sector into the community housing sector held by nonprofit housing providers or the community land trust, which will offer those tenants an opportunity to convert their homes to coops should they choose and then downstream.

Thom Armstrong: This is, for me, the really exciting part. When those buildings really do reach the end of their useful lives, say in 10, 15, 20 years, who knows, they can be redeveloped, but with the interests of the residents in mind, not investors. And the final irony, is that the first people to line up and say, we'd like to sell you our properties, We're the real estate investment trusts because they need capital to redeploy into new supply.

Thom Armstrong: And the best way to get that is to sell existing assets. And we were there ready to buy and that's that's what happened. So the first one, I'm so happy to, uh, to talk about this was. the set of two co ops in Coquitlam that we've talked about many times. We all remember the Burnaby co ops, 115 place in post 83, 425 homes rescued from a pension fund, now owned by the community land trust.

Thom Armstrong: And these two co ops in Coquitlam, another 290 homes. Owned by the same pension fund, and we were able to tap into the rental protection fund to write down the cost of buying those properties, and as of today, those 290 households, many of whom are seniors, with incomes like 22, 000 a year, are safe and secure in the communities they've built for the last 40 years, and we could not be happier.

Robin Puga: It is, I just, I cannot imagine how those Communities must be feeling right now. We, over the last few years fielded calls and inquiries at each for all about what, if there's anything we could do, cause they were so desperate, they were just contacting everybody they could 

Thom Armstrong: possibly think of. They were, can you imagine how, I mean, we're talking seniors, lower income households who, people talk about the.

Thom Armstrong: The effort we made to, but I'll tell you the heroes of this story are those members, because they would go to bed every night not knowing if they were going to wake up the next day to news that their property was sold to a, a real estate investment trust or a pen, another pension fund.

Thom Armstrong: And many of them. told me, and this is so moving that, the announcement at the co ops, many of them told me that once they heard the news, it was the first good night's sleep they'd had in years. Yeah, it's very 

Robin Puga: rewarding. So are there other properties we should keep our eyes out for? To watch here in the Lower Mainland or beyond, 

Thom Armstrong: Right now the, so, so the directors myself and Jill Atkey and Margaret Faux, the direct, the CEOs of the three societies we're governing the society, but we're not managing the day to day affairs because that would give rise to conflicts of interest that we expect.

Thom Armstrong: We're just better off avoiding. So, but I know the team at the rental protection fund led by the very capable Katie Nieslesko is busy pre qualifying non profit housing providers assessing proposals for sale and like I said, you will hear literally a blizzard of announcements and thousands of homes moving from their current insecure positions into the community housing sector where they'll be safe, secure and affordable forever.

Robin Puga: Amazing. Well, one of the Stories that we've covered a lot over the years has also been some of the Vancouver leasehold co ops and I'm, I don't know if there's any update on the city renewing leases or anything like that. I know some of that. Those co ops are on very valuable land. 

Thom Armstrong: They sure are.

Thom Armstrong: Fifty of them. And probably spent, I don't know how many years we've spent on this program. It might be like fifteen. Yeah. And so you'll ask how are those leasehold co ops in Vancouver? And I'll say, Still working on it, Robin and we're still working on it. I am actually encouraged now that we've resolved some of the more vexing problems around the structure of the lease for those whose leases are expiring and a particularly around the financing.

Thom Armstrong: mechanism for co ops who have to borrow and can't prepay the full value of their lease renewal. So I would think that if you invite me back sometime in the near future, we'll be able to talk about the first of a number of co op leases being renewed or And possibly even a number of co ops who have been targeted by the city for redevelopment, being able to tap into the BC Builds program and create many more affordable co op homes on the sites that are currently occupied by not very many co op homes.

Thom Armstrong: So that's going to be very exciting. I have to say that the the current council and everyone Had been very apprehensive about what would happen to co ops on leased land under the current council, but they, the ABC party as part of its election platform had promised to double the number of co op homes in Vancouver.

Thom Armstrong: And while I think everyone, including me, realizes that goal might be a little more aspirational than real the follow up we've been receiving has been, um, of people who want to see many more co op homes in, in Vancouver. So it does feel like a partnership and the thing about the new council which marks a real difference from the last council is, that super majority means that if you can convince the mayor's office and the counselors that to go in a certain direction, you can be confident that it will happen.

Robin Puga: Well, I'm looking forward to that conversation in the not too distant future. We talk about those Vancouver leasehold co ops. I did want to talk there was the BC's throne speech today? Yes. And what happened? 

Thom Armstrong: I think the main signal we got from the throne speech was that the government is not finished.

Thom Armstrong: Bringing legislation in that will change the landscape for the approval of new homes at the municipal level. And, as you can imagine, that has proven to be extremely controversial. The, um, the government's legislative just the four recent pieces of legislation that have been brought in over the last month have created a real storm of response at the municipal level.

Thom Armstrong: I was at the housing summit sponsored by the union of BC municipalities last week. And I'll tell you that the municipal officials both elected and staff. in many cases up in arms that the province has chosen to use its legislative authority to change the municipal planning landscape.

Thom Armstrong: Now I have to say, I don't have a ton of sympathy for those complaints because the premier and the housing minister went out of their way for the better part of two years to signal their intentions and nothing much changed. I mean, that's actually, that's not. really fair. There are municipalities like Burnaby like Coquitlam and others where You know, real changes were made in the planning framework and approval processes were speeded up.

Thom Armstrong: Density bonusing was used quite aggressively. So, those municipalities are understandably dismayed that they fall under some of that new provincial legislation when, in all fairness, it can be said that they did their best and they had been making progress. But the government, consistent with The positions it has really enunciated for the better part of two years said, nope, the progress we're seeing on the ground.

Thom Armstrong: is simply not good enough, and we're going to have to use this legislation to move it along. But, they've said, we understand that it's going to have an impact on capacity, on staffing capacity at the municipal level, and on infrastructure, because, every time you build a new housing.

Thom Armstrong: Development, you got to worry, well, are the sewer pipes up to the challenge and, how's the electricity grid and so there's funding available both for staffing and for infrastructure and from the federal government as well to try and perhaps if not, match the impact, dollar for dollar certainly make it a bit easier to handle.

Thom Armstrong: So, we'll see some of that legislation is bold. It does touch around density. It does touch around the sacred Cow of single detached zoning, which I think it's pretty, pretty realistic to say that the single detached zoning is gone. You won't see that anymore. If not today, then certainly in five or 10 years, it'll be a, it'll be a historical 

Robin Puga: Well, I know as well you're headed to Victoria for the budget, which is in the next is that tomorrow?

Robin Puga: A day after tomorrow. Day after tomorrow. Yeah. So, what is, I mean, we've, you've heard about all of this funding. What is the ask at the budget for CHFPC, for Housing Central? 

Thom Armstrong: Well, the one thing that we will be looking for because part of when you're in the budget lockup, you get all of the detailed estimates that went into the the crafting of the budget.

Thom Armstrong: So I don't think this is something we need to be worried about. We are going to look very carefully to make sure that some of the new money that got announced. Didn't displace money that was already promised, because that sometimes if you're trying to, stretch a budget to cover, more competing demands, it's tempting to, push something that might have been planned for next year two or three years down the road.

Thom Armstrong: I don't think we're going to see that, given what you mentioned earlier about the election cycle. So. The Premier and the Housing Minister want to make sure that the time between now and October, they're seen to be accelerating their commitment to housing, not pulling back on it. But we've, we've asked for a couple of things.

Thom Armstrong: First and foremost we think much more needs to be done to fully fund an urban, rural and northern Indigenous housing strategy. And I'd say on behalf of our colleagues at the Aboriginal Housing Management Association, that's still something the government hasn't fully come to grips with and needs to.

Thom Armstrong: And the rest of it, for us is tinkering. We'd like to see relief on property transfer tax, for example, for co ops who renew their long term leases with cities. Right now that can take a million dollar, or many millions of dollars bite out of the financing that co ops have to secure to pay for their lease extensions.

Thom Armstrong: So, we'd like to see that changed, and beyond that I think a different property tax regime for co op and non profit housing would help make operating budgets more affordable but I'd want to be careful about that because multi unit residential housing does draw on municipal services, and I don't want to send the message that Drawing on services and not doing something to pay for our share of them.

Thom Armstrong: So that's what we're looking for but the urban rural northern indigenous housing strategy for us is the top of mind issue and Needs urgent attention from the province and the federal government 

Robin Puga: and my understanding is the Aboriginal Housing Association They have a plan for this. They've like been working on this for years Like so they've got a pretty clear ask 

Thom Armstrong: is my understanding They have a fully costed data driven report that exposes the need and offers a concrete solution that, again, is fully costed.

Thom Armstrong: So there's no mystery around need or solution. All the government has to do is engage a little more actively in the partnership with AMA. And and get that budget in place so they can administer it. 

Robin Puga: Well, thank you for catching us up here. It sounds like we have talked a lot about non market housing, renters, rental stock and some pretty substantial changes happening here in the province.

Robin Puga: One thing we didn't talk about is unhoused folks and Well, I don't know. I guess the BC Rent Bank is not I know that they also have seen some additional funding But that's still talking about renters with the unhoused folks We've seen a few stories in the news lately, but I don't know if there's any that give you some additional hope here 

Thom Armstrong: I don't know if I'd say hope at this point our friends on the front lines of this, and I would say a battle, tell us that things are not getting better.

Thom Armstrong: The very aggressive move to clear encampments has created untold misery across the province. This is not just a Vancouver issue. I mean, I absolutely get the government's position that encampments were not a safe place for people, but neither is the street. Especially given the absolutely horrendous impact of the poison drug supply.

Thom Armstrong: And the absence of more concrete action around. Um, more than shelters for people who aren't housed and I guess I'd have to say a failure to deal realistically with that poison drug supply is just creating tragedies out there every day on the street. So if there was one area where I'd like to see things picked up that would be it.

Thom Armstrong: I'm very encouraged by efforts like the Downtown Eastside collaborative that are trying to bring a community land trust approach to the acquisition of of many SRO buildings and make them tenant run Shelters or homes rather than owned by some of the sketchiest landlords you could possibly imagine.

Thom Armstrong: I think that's a an inspiring initiative. And groups like the Hogan's Alley Community Land Trust. There's a real, a fascinating resurgence in the idea of community land trusts, which is not a very old concept in North America, but because of the efforts of some of the more established land trusts, not just here, but in places like Toronto and Halifax, you're seeing a national network spring up, which had its first inaugural conference in Toronto several months ago.

Thom Armstrong: And I think you're going to see that while the next one is actually here in Vancouver in October. And if we could arrange a time for you to sit down with some of the people who are doing absolutely amazing work on community regeneration and housing security and community economic development elsewhere in the country, I think you would be just blown away by what's happening on the land trust front.

Robin Puga: We'd love to do that. We are going to have to take a short station identification break and we'll be right back here on Vancouver Co op Radio. Thanks so much, Tom. We'll be right back.

Sandy Goldman: And we're back on Each for All The Co operative Connection and we're talking with Tom Armstrong, the CEO of the Co operative Housing Federation of BC. Tom, we'd like to turn our attention to what's been happening nationally in terms of housing. Is there Are there any initiatives over the last year, since we've talked to you on a national level, besides the announcement today for BC Builds that have that have been significant?

Thom Armstrong: Oh boy. Well, I'll tell you, it's a good thing they did make that announcement today, because otherwise I'd be in a surly mood around what the federal government has and hasn't done. So let's start with the glaring omission. We've talked more than once about the, and I'm going to put in big air quotes, new federal co op housing program.

Thom Armstrong: First announced and promised in the March 2022 budget. So now we're going on, we're just a month shy of two years since that promise was made. Okay. Here's the sound. If I could, if I had any talent, I would imitate the sound of crickets right now, because that's exactly what we have heard on that program.

Thom Armstrong: Now, since then, the minister has changed. Um, the minister talks in very encouraging tones. So does the deputy prime minister Christopher Freeland, who's a co op kid herself grew up in a housing co op in Edmonton. And so, so they have talked about how important it is to them to launch this new federal co op housing program.

Thom Armstrong: But of course a lot has changed since the promise was made especially interest rates. So the number of homes that can now be delivered, assuming that they're still serious about launching the program and I honestly don't know. At this point will be much less than would otherwise have been delivered if we'd just gone on with the job.

Thom Armstrong: And it's not like, like it's not rocket science, right? You've got a national crown agency, CMHC with what, 50 plus years or more of administering housing programs. You've got a very capable community housing sector, more capacity in the community housing sector today. I would argue then, at any point in its history, and the political will to get that program launched is just not there.

Thom Armstrong: So that's the big disappointment. The federal government has been making quite an impact at the municipal level through its Housing Accelerator Fund. Well, apart from in distinction to past approaches where the federal government was very reluctant to attach strings to money, they have been quite aggressive about saying to municipalities.

Thom Armstrong: We're not going to give you money to accelerate the production of housing unless you can show us that you are accelerating the production of housing. And by that I mean removing the planning barriers. Like public hearings for affordable housing projects that are already consistent with the official community plan.

Thom Armstrong: Like, duh. Like, those should be gone. Excessive development cost levies. Planning processes that add One, two, three years. We've talked about this before in respect of some of our proposals. Those have to be gone. And, the Minister has shown himself to be quite serious about sticking to his guns and not releasing the money until those commitments are made.

Sandy Goldman: And Tom, what kind of housing is going to be built through the Housing Accelerator 

Thom Armstrong: Fund? Was that is a really good question. Primarily you'll see housing like you saw with the rental construction finance initiative, which was a program designed primarily for the housing sector. It will be market based rental supply.

Thom Armstrong: So there's still a very significant gap in terms of affordability, because, as we know rents and incomes have been increasing on two completely different tracks. And there's still an affordability crisis in the country. So this isn't 

Sandy Goldman: really affordable housing? 

Thom Armstrong: Well, it's a, as they like to say, it's affordable to someone.

Sandy Goldman: Right, but not what we're talking about here in terms of BC Builds and That's right. That kind of situation. I heard about a huge cooperative housing project in Scarborough. Yes. And we saw the sort of outline of that. 918 homes. Can you tell us a bit about that? That looks incredible. 

Thom Armstrong: It's very exciting.

Thom Armstrong: So the total development is 900 and change. The co op will be 630. Of those 900 and some, and it's a very interesting model. So they're going to be doing it through the community land trust run by the Cooperative Housing Federation of Toronto. So that's the first bit of good news and the financing, it's quite creative.

Thom Armstrong: The private developer who's going to own and market the other 300 plus it's development fee for. Doing that market housing would be about 14 million. Instead of paying it to the city, it has to pay it to the co op. To reduce the cost of building and financing the co op so those homes stand a better chance of being affordable from day one than they otherwise might be.

Thom Armstrong: So, very innovative model like that. Can't wait to see more of it. And the community land trust model in Toronto is really flourishing. They're accepting transfers of single family homes, like 600 of them owned by the city of Toronto, they're just tired of managing them, like they're very affordable, but they're not in great shape.

Thom Armstrong: So now they're assets of the community land trust. 

Sandy Goldman: You know, we saw a story on co op housing on the national last week. And it was interesting, I guess for us in B. C. or Canada. Talking about co ops here it made it sound like what's old is new again. Yeah, that's right. I laughed at the story, but it's also really important and we hope that the feds get on board.

Sandy Goldman: What about the idea of the Rental Housing Protection Fund going national? 

Thom Armstrong: It's very exciting. We Do you see that possibly? Yeah. Yeah. Through the Rental Protection Fund and the Co op Housing Federation of Canada. And the Canadian Housing and Renewal Association, we've actually made a formal proposal to the federal government to create a much bigger National Acquisition Fund based on the model of the BC Rental Protection Fund.

Thom Armstrong: And just literally today, we got a letter of endorsement from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities saying to the Minister of Housing, you have to do this. And other groups including, this is sometimes, um, housing politics makes for strange bedfellows. But the, a group of real estate investment trusts who had been advancing their own proposal for a national acquisition fund have withdrawn it and said to the federal government, no, we think you should support the community housing sector led fund proposal.

Thom Armstrong: And many others are doing the same. So. You'd like to think the stars are aligned on this. The B. C. Fund has already delivered proof of concept. And the problem of the loss of affordable rental stock is even more dramatic in central Canada than it is in B. C. So why would you not want to address that as part of your overall, if you want to say you have a national housing strategy, why would it not focus on protecting the affordable housing we already have?

Sandy Goldman: Right. And we don't see other provinces initiating similar programs, like Ontario, where there's all this good stock? Yeah, 

Thom Armstrong: we don't see them initiating it, but boy, are they ever paying attention. Right. Our ministry in Victoria has said they are getting calls non stop from other provinces, particularly, Manitoba Quebec, Nova Scotia.

Thom Armstrong: That's the conversations we've heard about. It's a good idea. I think it's picking up steam. I wouldn't be surprised to see Well, I think some of the smaller provinces might be waiting to see what the feds are going to do. And then rather than crank up their own program, they would argue for a slice of the national budget.

Thom Armstrong: For a National Acquisition Fund. That's just my guess. I don't know that for 

Sandy Goldman: a fact. And so with a federal budget in a, I guess a month or two, usually April what's the cooperative housing nationally asking of the government besides a federal co op housing program? 

Thom Armstrong: Well, that's certainly number one.

Thom Armstrong: Well, it's not number one actually, because you shouldn't have to put number one on your list, something that was promised to you two years ago. So, so number one on the list. And I'm proud of them for doing this because we've done it here, too, is funding a national urban, rural, and northern indigenous housing strategy.

Thom Armstrong: The need across the country is acute. It's a moral and human rights failure of our country. The eyes of the world should be on our disgraceful record. And not just in terms of housing indigenous populations but other aspects as well. So that's the number one priority.

Thom Armstrong: The second is the National Acquisition Fund and the third, and this is something I'm sure we'll come back to on future shows, all of those, um, income or rent subsidies for thousands and thousands of co op homes across the country. Developed under those federal programs, they expire on March 31, 2028.

Thom Armstrong: So you're talking 400, 000 Canadians who will see the bottom drop out of their housing affordability or whose co ops will be put in the position of keeping housing affordable for their members or maintaining their buildings. And that's something the federal government Needs to start coming to grips with and I'm glad that the National Federation put it on the table today, even though those subsidies don't expire until 2028.

Sandy Goldman: Well, Tom, it's been a, there's so much more to talk about and we're not going to wait a year to have you back here in the studio to talk about it because things are unfolding at, well, maybe not so much at the national level but maybe things will change but certainly locally and provincially, we thank you so much for coming in to spend time with us on Each for All.

Sandy Goldman: And we wish you all the best going forward and keep us posted on new and exciting developments to create safe, affordable housing. That's really what we want here. 

Thom Armstrong: It sure is. And I want to say to all the, I'm assuming there are thousands of co op members listening to us tonight. Always. And, so I want to say to them the best thing you could do when you wake up tomorrow is make a donation to Co Op Radio.

Thom Armstrong: And for, we'll match every dollar that you donate up to a thousand dollars and hope to kickstart something here and support our community radio station because this is where the real action is. 

Robin Puga: Thank you so much, Tom. Your support for Co op Radio just warms my heart every time, and I know you're a long time supporter of our show as well.

Robin Puga: Can't thank you enough. 

Thom Armstrong: My pleasure. Let's do it next time. 

Robin Puga: Sounds good. That's Tom Armstrong. CEO of the Co op Housing Federation of British Columbia here on Vancouver Co op Radio. We're going to take a short musical break and we'll be right back with the Education and Communications Manager of the BC Cooperative Association, Madeleine Reid.

Robin Puga: And I'm going to leave it to you, Sandy, to kick off this intermittent tune. 

Sandy Goldman: Joni Mitchell was on the Grammys, I guess, a few weeks ago and I think she's 80 now and, she's fighting a few physical challenges, but there she was. I think the first time on the Grammys or singing on the Grammys or something and there was a great outpouring of love.

Sandy Goldman: So we're gonna go back in her catalogue to a familiar tune. It was actually written when she was in BC in the early 70s. And here's Joni her voice is a little different than what you heard on the Grammys, but we love her all the same. Joni Mitchell.

Robin Puga: And We're back here on each for all the cooperative connection You're of course listening to Vancouver co op radio 100. 5 FM in Vancouver and live online at co op radio org We're really pleased to have with us in this Studio this well, no, sorry. We had tom in the studio now We have on the phone Madelyn reed the education and communications manager of the bc cooperative association And so Madelyn hopefully you can hear us.

Robin Puga: I can hello. Hey, welcome thank you for joining us tonight. We were exchanging emails there. And we always love to check in with the BC Cooperative Association. And I understand you have a few exciting upcoming workshops for co op members and leaders in the next month. And I'm hoping You can give us a little update about all of these and maybe get some more people learning about co ops.

Madelyn Read: Yeah, totally. Thanks for having me on. I'm so super excited to share what we have coming up. So yes, I'm. Madeleine Reed, I'm the education and communications manager at the BC Co op Association. And the two workshops we have coming up in the next month in March are a cooperative governance workshop on Wednesday, March 6th, and a cooperative member engagement workshop on Wednesday, March 20th.

Madelyn Read: And I can give little descriptions about that now, if that works for you. Yeah, please. Sweet. So, yes, the first one on March 6th is cooperative governance, and we are Excited to host this workshop because we really want to support people who might already be in positions within co ops in sort of a governance board director position.

Madelyn Read: And we also want to empower folks to feel like they have the knowledge to take on. Those positions, whether they're involved in a co op already or thinking about joining a co op. And so the workshop is designed to help the participants really understand the unique aspects of cooperative governance as democratically owned organizations.

Madelyn Read: They do have certain, like a distinct nature versus other types of organizations like non profit societies or companies. So that's a big part of the workshop. And we'll also dig into the sort of different roles that board directors play versus. Staff versus the members of cooperatives and talk about how you can make meaningful and purpose driven decisions if you end up Being elected into those types of governance positions.

Robin Puga: That sounds very handy. 

Madelyn Read: Yeah, right. I think so that's the first one and then the second one is a member engagement workshop and that's on march 20th And in this workshop, we're going to really delve into the importance of member engagement in cooperatives Since of course co ops are member owned Organizations.

Madelyn Read: Having engaged involved members is super important to the success and longevity of coops. And so in this workshop, we talk about we talk about that importance and what happens if you have really good member engagement and what can happen if member engagement starts to slip, which can happen a lot of the time, just because it's often is on the back burner when you just have your and so we look at those different scenarios, and then we offer some discussion and ideas for how we can leverage different tools to increase member engagement and support cooperatives overall and, potentially work within the capacity boundaries that a lot of coops may face if they're smaller or don't have a ton of staff so those are the two workshops, and they're both hosted on zoom over the lunch hour, so each one will be from 11 30 a.m. to 1 30 p. m pacific time. 

Robin Puga: Very cool. And if people are interested in registering, how do they go about doing that? 

Madelyn Read: Yes, great question. So, there is a I should mention there is a fee to attend the workshop But if you are affiliated with one of our So if you're a member cooperative, you get basically 50 percent off.

Madelyn Read: And so whether you're a board director or staff person, volunteer or a member of our member co op, you can access that discount. And if you're not sure you can go on our website and go into our member section and look at our member directory. And then to sign up for the to sign up for the workshops themselves, you can register by going to our website.

Madelyn Read: Which is www dot bcca dot co-op and then slash events. And that will have both workshops there, which you can register for. 

Robin Puga: Awesome. And what is the cost? 

Madelyn Read: The cost, oh, let me double check. Before, I believe it's $50, but I don't wanna say the wrong thing, but 45 or 50, I'm just, it's slipped to my mind.

Robin Puga: Yeah, well, I gotta say the co-op governance and taking a workshop in it. Would have been very helpful when I was on boards of Vancouver Co op Radio. It is one of those things that often you, it's a trial by fire and you're just all of a sudden in there and having to figure all this stuff out.

Robin Puga: I often talk about Co op Radio board as being cooperative boot camp. Because yeah, trying to figure this all out and you have to do everything from, staff negotiations to writing policies to like stuff you've never even thought about before. So that's exciting. And member engagement is one of those things that like, I think a lot of co ops struggle with.

Robin Puga: When I think about the co ops that actually get themselves into the most amount of trouble. It's that loss of connection. 

Madelyn Read: Totally, yeah. So we really want to, yeah, I think that point you mentioned around, trial by fire and having to figure things out, a lot of co ops come to us and say, we want some sort of best practices or some guidance with like, what are other people doing?

Madelyn Read: And it can be discouraging when, the co op model is so diverse that it can be hard to, Figure out what the best practices are, but we really want to invite everyone to come and discuss and, figure out who we can learn from and tailor different strategies to different contexts, because there are so many in the cooperative 

Robin Puga: movement.

Robin Puga: Absolutely. That's fantastic. Well, I'm glad to hear that these are happening and we'll promote them on our website as well. And is there anything else that you wanted to share with the BC Co op Association? I think we're going to try and get connected again and have more folks on the show. But if there's anything else you want to mention, we can Yeah, that would be great.

Madelyn Read: And also, while you have me, I would love to mention that we just announced we're having a Co op meetup in Nelson on March 12th. So for the folks in the Kootenay region you can register on our website same address as I mentioned before and come out and hang out in our member engagement Manager Marla will be out there as well as our co executive director Zoe Creighton and they'll be Hosting a nice just networking social hang in Nelson for anyone who's involved in co ops and wants to come out.

Robin Puga: Awesome. That's great Well, our listeners in CJLY and Nelson, British Columbia will be listening to this and pick it up. Yeah. Great. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Madelyn. We'll say goodnight and we'll, I'm sure, cross paths again very soon. Sounds good. Thanks so much, Robin. All right. Have a good evening. You too.

Robin Puga: Bye. That was Madelyn Reid, the Education and Communications Manager of the British Columbia Cooperative Association here on Vancouver Co op Radio. And that brings us to the end. Thanks, Sandy and Madelyn and Tom. It's been great to have a show in the studio again. It's 

Sandy Goldman: been really great to be back in the studio.

Sandy Goldman: I feel like I really miss this and I hope that we're able to do it more often. We used to be here every week, almost. Before the pandemic. So we've been broadcasting remotely for a number of years and it's not just, it's not the same. So look for us or listen for us back in the studio, maybe in a month or so.

Sandy Goldman: In the meantime, I just want to promote some upcoming shows on Each for All. We're going to try and look into the amazing cooperative sector in New Zealand. Apparently they have more co ops per, I don't know what, than any other part of the world. And so that's something we're hoping to do in 2024.

Sandy Goldman: And we're going to speak to some of the co operators that we've interviewed in the past. To see how they're doing a couple of folks, there's a home care workers co op in Ontario that started during the pandemic and we're going to speak with them and a community co op for seniors in PEI and rural PEI, so we're going to see how they're doing and try and catch up with as many folks as we can.

Sandy Goldman: In the meantime, we'll Thanks for listening to Teach for All, the Cooperative Connection, live from the downtown Eastside. We're listening to us on Co op Radio, 100. 5 FM, and online at coopradio. org. I'm Sandy Goldman, here with Robin Puga, and listen in next week for more stories on the cooperative sector.

Sandy Goldman: Bye for now.